As we all know, the unassailable maxim for distinguishing the likely true from the likely false is "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence", or to put it another way, "If I can't see it, I won't believe!" Now surely, any omniscient God would recognize the truth of this, so why would he cordon off all the evidence for himself into the unobservable past? And this being the case, why doesn't he give everybody on earth their very own time machine so that we can travel back in time and see all those wonderful things the Bible reports for ourselves? He's omnipotent, right? So giving everybody their own time machine should be a piece of cake.
In summary:
If God was real and he really loved me, then he'd give me a time machine so that I can see the evidence for myself.
I don't have a time machine.
Therefore, God does not exist.
The logic is inescapable.
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26 comments:
If He gave you the machine, you’d have no reason to go back because He'd be right there.
As for proof, beings who love me stop by for a drink. Why should He be any different? It's not like He has anything else to do...
Excellent point, Mr. Deering. Perhaps we can come up with a new argument against theism called "The Argument From Cocktail Party".
Another excellent point, anonymous. Since we can always appeal to naturalism, God is no longer needed to explain anything, so we win by default. :)
Brookes Slurpee said...
Excellent point, Mr. Deering. Perhaps we can come up with a new argument against theism called "The Argument From Cocktail Party".
Me likie cocktail with God. He can tend bar but the cheese and crackers are on me. It's the least I can do considering that He provides for us all...
I don't need a miracle Anonymous. I just need something better than an old Jewish book and a bunch of convoluted "logic" from the Christians. Something better than a book doesn't seem too much to ask from an Eternal and All Powerful Being. He has all the time in the Universe on His hands so a few minutes with me once in my life would hardly crimp His schedule.
Maybe He's just tired.
I can believe in God, I just don't see any reason to...
john g. deering
I can believe in God, I just don't see any reason to...
2 Timothy 2:24-26
24 The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all,able to teach, patient when wronged, 25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition,if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,
26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.
He has all the time in the Universe on His hands so a few minutes with me once in my life would hardly crimp His schedule.
But even then, as anonymous pointed out above, naturalism would still be the default explanation for why you thought you had a face-to-face with God (in this case, an hallucination or delusion would be preferable to "God did it"). That's the whole problem with the God argument: there is no evidence that could ever be presented that could not be accounted for with a naturalistic explanation.
To put it another way, theists are proposing the existence of a being who can only be proven to exist if he provided evidence that couldn't possibly exist (i.e. evidence that could not be accounted for by naturalism).
Sorry, theists, but a credible historical account is simply not good enough.
Brookes Slurpee said...
That's the whole problem with the God argument: there is no evidence that could ever be presented that could not be accounted for with a naturalistic explanation.
Bullshit.
I could come with a hundred amazing things that would be out of this universe, literally, and I don't have the power of the mind of God. If I created humanity and I wanted them to know me, believe me, they would never be able to forget. No arguments possible...
Nice quote Antipelagian but you post on Atheism Sucks! Frank Walton is nothing like that and you by association. I'd like Christianity to be presented by a real Christian, not someone who thinks attacking the faithless is the way to save souls or to defend the Kingdom of God.
Here's my Bible quote:
Philippians 2 (NIV)
12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.
14 Do everything without complaining or arguing, 15 so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a crooked and depraved generation, in which you shine like stars in the universe
I could come with a hundred amazing things that would be out of this universe, literally, and I don't have the power of the mind of God.
Interesting proposition. And how would you go about presenting these "amazing things" to a being who exists in and could only understand them from a naturalistic perspective in such a way that he could not account for them with a naturalistic explanation (i.e. hallucination, etc.)? You see the problem that theists run into? Any evidence they or their God might present can always be dismissed with an appeal to naturalism. God is not needed to explain anything. In short, they've invented a God that they can never prove. Sucks to be them.
You can't have it both ways - if we're too stupid to see all this evidence Christians promise then why didn't god give us bigger brains? It is hardly my fault if god didn't make me a world class historian is it? God can't make all his evidence really complicated and then atheists so stupid - that would be unfair. Why didn't he make the servers holding Zeitgeist the Movie blow up just before I tried downloading it if he wanted people like me to only use scholarship?
Can't you guys see - either god doesn't exist or atheists are really clever. You think your blog is parody but you time machine argument is actually valid and one I might even start considering using myself.
john g deering
Nice quote Antipelagian but you post on Atheism Sucks! Frank Walton is nothing like that and you by association.
I'm glad you liked that biblical quote.
God is in control and He does hold sovereignly over your unbelief. Whether you think I'm a bad guy or not is of no account to me.
I'm not here to make you think I'm a swell guy...though if you've looked at what I write on Atheism Sucks!, you'll see long lists of discussion...not ad homs, not mere name calling. You'll see atheists (like you) call me names and mock me...but you'll see the thoughtful atheists carry on discussion with me...
It is of no account anyway. I won't be judged by any man.
Romans 4:7-9
7"BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN,
AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED.
8"BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT."
9Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."
Even if I've carried myself in a way which is sinful, I am right with God. What you say has no bearing on my salvation.
I've looked at your blog "Atheism Rocks-Christianity Sucks!
What I've written is easily accessible via my personal blog, Atheism Sucks! and my YouTube where I go by Antipelagian as well.
May God grant you repentance.
Antipelagian said...
May God grant you repentance.
I have nothing to repent for. Unlike you it seems, I have never sinned against God. He and I are in near perfect harmony these days. He understands me. He’d have to and He knows exactly why I don’t believe in Him and what it would take for me to do so.
As for judgment, you'll find that Paul was very big on the faithful keeping each other in line. If you are humble, you'll see that only other men can properly judge your actions while on earth even if God is the ultimate judge. Not being judged doesn't help you in the slightest because most Christians “know not what they do”. Your partner in corrupting the Gospel named Frank is a perfect example. He is the very definition of someone needing forgiveness. If he was typical of what Christianity stood for, then the Jesus Cult would have died out before the Gentiles ever heard of it.
Oddly enough, I’m not really interested in making more atheists but I am interested in making better Christians. Yeshua deserves better than he gets. He went to the cross so that you guys could spend your time debating about whether the Eternal Being is logical and rule-bound? I think he’d be ashamed of the very idea. God can never be found in words or at the end of an argument. The Jews know that which is why to this day they still write His name G-d. No words can describe the Almighty.
On a personal note, if you can find a name that I called you, then I owe you one, but considering that everything, and I mean everything, that I write there is now utterly censored out, that won’t be an easy task. There are Christians out there worthy of respect. Those associated with Atheism Sucks! are not among them.
As for my parody sites, see them for what they are. If I had another way to make my point, I would because even I can see the wisdom of not wasting good seeds on the hard path…
john g deering
Oddly enough, I’m not really interested in making more atheists but I am interested in making better Christians. Yeshua deserves better than he gets. He went to the cross so that you guys could spend your time debating about whether the Eternal Being is logical and rule-bound? I think he’d be ashamed of the very idea. God can never be found in words or at the end of an argument. The Jews know that which is why to this day they still write His name G-d. No words can describe the Almighty.
I see...so you're a Reformer.
On a personal note, if you can find a name that I called you, then I owe you one
I wasn't thinking you had called me any names...I am not aware of you having done that ever. I wanted to direct you to look at what I've written (and I know you've read at least one or two comments from me on Atheism Sucks!) and see if I fit the profile you think I do.
Frank started Atheism Sucks!I am not like Frank, and I believe he asked me to be a part of that site partly for that reason. I'm not bashing Frank's tactics, btw. He's more of the "get in your face and garner a reaction" type...I simply like to think and interact with atheists a bit.
I'm not bashing your tactics either, btw:
You do use the very tactics you despise Frank for. I'm simply calling out your blaring contradiction.
Antipelagian said...
You do use the very tactics you despise Frank for. I'm simply calling out your blaring contradiction.
If I couldn't see it clearly, and acknowledge it honestly, I'd have to be blind, but I'm not a Christian who is supposedly filled with the love of the Christ. They are supposed to be better because they "have morals" unlike the atheists I've been told.
Frank is a terrible Christian but he'd make a lousy atheist as well. He's a "true believer" and they are the worst types. I'd love to have an honest discourse where the middle ground could be reached but people like Frank don’t have middle ground. You could be a great guy but as long as your name is on AS!, you are in bad company. I know that you aren't the only reformer there but until you guys will stand up to Frank and tell him how wrong he is, how destructive he is to the Gospel, nothing the rest of us say will matter.
If you want me to change my tactics then you have to be first in line. I have no ethics against fighting fire with fire, and I don't have to because I base my rules on what works, not on the absolutes of a God who said "What you do to the least of them you do to me”. Does Frank really mean to call Jesus a dumbass?
For a Christian, the atheists are the least of them, always, because they are going straight to hell. Helping to push them there isn’t going to get you a pat on the back from Jesus, it's going to get you a swift kick in the ass...
John,
You've had ample opportunity to discuss with me anything you'd like. I'm certainly not "neutral", and believe you mean you'd like to talk to someone a bit more mushy-headed than someone actively reasoning.
I will make no comments...here are two quotes from the same comment:
john g deering
I know that you aren't the only reformer there but until you guys will stand up to Frank and tell him how wrong he is, how destructive he is to the Gospel, nothing the rest of us say will matter.
If you want me to change my tactics then you have to be first in line. I have no ethics against fighting fire with fire, and I don't have to because I base my rules on what works
Yep, that's what I said alright...
john g deering
Oddly enough, I’m not really interested in making more atheists but I am interested in making better Christians. Yeshua deserves better than he gets...
this is john the reformer...the one bringing purity back to Christian practice.
Compare with what he's says here:
From "Atheism Rocks-Christianity Sucks!" Post entitled: The thing to do with the Christians (assuming that you don't have lions or they've just eaten their fill
john g deering
The thing to do with the Christians is to get them to be nasty and spiteful, angry and argumentative, bitter and frustrated. You want them to be as unchristian as possible so that the true Glory of God shines through.
Are your comments blocked for a reason at Atheism Sucks! Hmmm. I don't know. You're a genuine seeker of truths and a humanitarian toward animals...you wouldn't want them to over eat when they're full of Christians already...harassment is just as valid as murder (though murder is clearly more preferable).
I stand by everything I write. Some of it is satirical, like my anti-Christian sites, but most of it is not. I'm not going for sainthood here so don’t put me on too lofty a purpose. I don’t. The Internet is full of crap and I'm just adding to the mess, but I'm interested in Christians acting like it.
You seem to be bothered by my split personalities on the web? That is human nature. I don’t expect you take a single thing I say on faith nor do I expect you to grant it more than it's worth, but if you can't see that someone like Frank is the worst kind of Christian, the type most abusive in the name of Jesus, then you are not thinking clearly.
Atheism Sucks! is so far removed from the truths of Christianity as to be an abomination. God must put his head in His hands every time He sees another one of Frank’s insults. That’s not who the Christ was about or how he wanted those who believed in him to act. The Gospels have a generosity toward the non-believers that someone like Frank cannot begin to understand it seems and that is a shame, pure and simple. Except for his belief in the Christ, he is not a Christian.
I may hate Christianity but I speak the truth, as best I’m able, regardless of where it leads. That is why God is welcome in my life should He ever wander in. Find me an atheist who says that and I’ll buy you both a drink…
The message I bring is valid even if you don’t respect the messenger.
“Listen to your enemy, for God is speaking” – Old Jewish Proverb…
john g. deering
I stand by everything I write. Some of it is satirical, like my anti-Christian sites, but most of it is not.
You may go by "john", but jonathan swift you ain't.
You seem to be bothered by my split personalities on the web? That is human nature. I don’t expect you take a single thing I say on faith nor do I expect you to grant it more than it's worth, but if you can't see that someone like Frank is the worst kind of Christian, the type most abusive in the name of Jesus, then you are not thinking clearly.
Whether I agree with Frank's mode of operation or not is irrelevant. I'm not bothered by your split personalities either.
Pot, you may continue calling the kettle black.
I go by "John" because that's my real name.
As for fighting fire with fire, I offer no apologies. I'm not supposed to rise above the human condition because I'm filled with the love of God. That is for the Christians to do. When they give me the shirt off their backs and walk the extra mile, I might consider giving them a break. So far, I’ve seen lost of Christian ego and very little Christian humility…
john,
last comment.
If you were in need of a shirt, you wouldn't be online...if you needed to go for a walk, you should look for a Christian in your neighborhood. If you're simply looking to make accusations about Christians...you're in the right place.
If you ever feel like you really want to discuss things, you may comment on my personal blog. I only delete completely profane comments...some of which I will be putting on a post to show how one particular atheist has tried "evangelizing" me.
See you there...
It's so much more fun when you can actually post comments that aren’t just dumped in the toilet due to someone’s paranoia and hatred. You have an honesty that Frank sadly lacks. Between you and M, there might yet be hope...
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